Landships II

Peter T · General

RE: Artillery tractor

Arie Dijkhuis · General

Hi Peter,

Looking at these boxes, I think you are right. They are of very sturdy construction, unlike the other stowage boxes. They seem to be built for carrying a lot of weight. That leaves the question how shells and propellant was stored, standing upright of lying down.

With kind regards,

-Arie.

Arie Dijkhuis · General

Hi Peter,

So you think the 2 boxes on the side are not boxes at all, but just loading doors so you can enter the back from the sides. The Horch indeed does not seem to have a box there.

With kind regards,

-Arie

CharlieC · Legend

What sort of 15cm projectile - gun or howitzer? I have a French manual of German projectiles with sizes and colours - easy to pull these out.

I have no idea what packaging the Germans used - I know the field guns often used wicker baskets for the field gun projectiles but I have no idea whether

this was universal for all calibres.

Kaiser's bunker has a page on cartridge cases used with the 15cm guns.

Regards,

Charlie

Arie Dijkhuis · General

Hi Charlie,

These tractors pulled the 15cm K16 guns.

With kind regards,

-Arie.

Arie Dijkhuis · General

Hi Peter,

I think you are right, these are not boxes.

With kind regards,

-Arie.

CharlieC · Legend

There seem to have been two projectile types used with the K16 guns. They weighed somewhat over 50kg and were 700+mm long.

The cartridge case for the K16 is documented at: https://www.kaisersbunker.com/cc/cc06.htm

Regards,

Charlie

Peter T · General

CharlieC wrote:
I have no idea what packaging the Germans used - I know the field guns often used wicker baskets for the field gun projectiles but I have no idea whether this was universal for all calibres.

Thanks Charlie! And you are right, neither I found informations on packaging of these projectiles. There are some pictures of ammunition dumps on the Internet, but I can't make out which calbres...

Arie Dijkhuis · General

Hiya Gents,

Definitely baskets. I think the propellant was carried in baskets as well...

With kind regards,

-Arie

Arie Dijkhuis · General

found another one.. smile

Arie Dijkhuis · General

...and the shell case is of similar size, 72.2 cm.

-- Edited by Arie Dijkhuis on Saturday 18th of February 2023 12:39:44 AM

-- Edited by Arie Dijkhuis on Saturday 18th of February 2023 01:18:37 AM

Arie Dijkhuis · General

Hi Peter,

I have to admit that I am pretty pleased with the result so far...

The engine is far from finished, but even in this state it looks quite good. I was never going to do the engine, but after being inspired by your work I decided to give it a try. I am very glad I did, so thanks!

With kind regards,

-Arie.

Peter T · General

Hi Arie
It was the right decision to add the engine and it also contributes a lot to the impressive appearance of those vehicles. Must have been an insiane sight in those days...
I should also admit, that I have been inspired by your work too! After having seen, that you did some rivets on the cab (which are actually nail heads) even in that small scale, I decided to add some to my cab too.

However, even it catches the effect of nailed plywood, it is somehow too uneven and couldn't bee seen in the printed surface!

I will see...
Peter

Arie Dijkhuis · General

Hi Peter,

That looks great! You have even drawn the dents where the nails have been driven in! If you use a resin printer, this will definitely print well and will give the model a great look!

With kind regards,

-Arie.

Peter T · General

Alas, it’s (still) not in my prefered 1/25 scale, but the project is moving forward.

First fitting of parts without glue as to be seen on the St. George Model’s facebook page:

Arie Dijkhuis · General

Hi Peter,

Wow, that looks great! Have you received a copy yet?

With kind regards,

-Arie.

Peter T · General

Thanks Arie! Not yet, as it's far away from being finished. So now I am hard at work trying to fix all parts that must be reworked.
Cheers, Peter
BTW. Have you seen that new and rare picture on Ebay of the six-cylinder too?

Arie Dijkhuis · General

Hi Peter,

No, I hadn't seen this one, so thanks for sharing! I always thought that this captured vehicle had the upper part of it's loading platform removed, but your picture shows this is not the case. Have you any idea of what it is pulling? It looks like some 15 cm Russian or Belgian captured guns.

You may still be far from finishing this vehicle, it still looks very impressive! Did you draw the figure as well? He looks very nochalant and I love the pose!

With kind regards,

-Arie

Peter T · General

Hi Arie
I have the intention that with this six-cylinder an attempt had been made to reconcile all different demands in one vehicle. In the fourth picture of my six-cylinder thread you can make out that small loading platform and also the fastening device. So it is equally a prime mover and a ammunition carrier. That huge radiator doesn't fit somehow either!
And no, the figure is from Yury himself! I am not as talented as he is...
Cheers, Peter

Arie Dijkhuis · General

Hi Peter,

You could be right, all pictures I have of the 6-cylinder do have more or less the same construction at the back.

I too have not even tried to draw a figure as I think my skills are not good enough. Then again, my computer would probably not even run the complex geometry.. smile

With kind regards,

-Arie.

Peter T · General

It's been a long time since I posted an update here. Finally I got some (small) results on my modelling desk.

It's very satisfying to see how the individual parts of my own model come together. As I am planning to do this specific vehicle at Oberkail in 1918 I have to dismantling one or another part (e.g. the engine or the bonnet) and I want to do the arches of the tarpaulin with etched parts.

Oberkail klein.jpg

Cheers,

Peter

Arie Dijkhuis · General

Hi Peter,

It looks great! What colour will you use to paint it?

With kind regards,

-Arie.

Peter T · General

Hi Arie,

thanks for your answer! I do not quite understand your question: colour hues or colour brad.

If you ask me what colour hue I am gonna choose, it will most probably be a rather bright fieldgrey (more greenish than greyish). Unfortunately for the modeler the main colour coverd the entire vehicle as you may see here on that Büssing 55hp Artillery tractor.

That could look rather booring! But, after that long period in the field, the wheels and other more used parts most probably would become a worn/rusty appearance. Further more the original vehicle was photographed after a rainy period, what will add a lot of atmosphere to the model (if I succeed to do that).

As you know, I am a long term modeler, so this will happen no earlier than five years or so .... ;-D

-- Edited by Peter T on Friday 29th of December 2023 11:34:15 AM

Arie Dijkhuis · General

Hi Peter,

We're still neck and neck... smile

I too think I will go for a pale greyish green, closer to green than grey, similar to a surviving Horch truck. I agree that rain streaks will add a lot of character to the vehicle, but I too have never attempted this. I look forward to seeing your finished model. No rush though.

With kind regards,

-Arie.

Peter T · General

Boa! How did you get those most thinly pipes printed ? At my vehicle (and after all it is in 1/35 scale) a lot of those small parts suffered while trimming the supports.

Here an example: The air guide of the fan was too thin and some pieces broke away as well as the ventilator supports. Manageable but bothersome !

P.S.

Concerning our next neck-and-neck race: You should start with your own Dürkopp immediately. I made a good deal of progress already...

Arie Dijkhuis · General

Hi Peter,

The reason why those thin parts do not suffer when I cut them from the supports is because when I cut them, the model isn't fully cured yet and therefore still quite flexible. I cure my parts only after I have cut them, cleaned them and in many cases, assembled them. Unfortunately, when you buy a 3D printed model, it is already fully cured an therefore brittle.

You indeed are way ahead with your Dürkopp and it looks great! Then again, I started the Munitionswagen almost 5 years ago, so I think I will give you a head start this time... smile

The Tankograd book -yes, I finally got my copy smile - also contains scale drawings of a Benz artillery tractor and this is also very tempting. The Lastenverteilergerät is also very high up my list. The drawings of the Dürkopp have no scale nor dimensions. Does the vehicle in the drawings have the early 1,5 meter back wheels?

With kind regards,

-Arie.

Peter T · General

Arie

Due to the lack of dimensions, the wildest rumors are circulating all over related forums. Jochen Vollert describes the situation very accurate in the preface of his Tankograd booklet. Spielberger and Oswald (only to name a view) could examine original documents that still existed at that time. In the meantime a lot of archives had been disbanded – it seems, company’s history and even more arms industry has not taken place before 1945, particularly in Germany.

Jochen Voller based his book on those references and contributed a lot of contemporary photos that have come up only recently. The very few drawings that survived are mostly without dimensions.

The first years of war saw a wide range of tractor designs and also wheel dimensions. But in 1917 the German High Command defined their requrements that led to a certain minimal standartisation (80hp/100hp).

Spielberger recorded the Büssing wheel dimensions with 120/180cm. «Benz» (written in the drawing), Pöhl and also Dürkopp based the rear wheel on the same «Pöhl-Rad» patent, so I guess this will be 180cm for the standard version.

«Dürkopp» introduced later a larger version of their Artillery tractor, the 100hp. A 100hp Dürkopp in 1/35 scale, that would have surpassed all!!! Unfortunately, I have no idea, how the monstrous rear wheel (approx. 215cm) was positioned within the frame. There must have been some modifications not only in relation to the frame (due to the wheel’s bigger diameter) but also in relation to the transmission, as the chain sprocket has moved above the frame, and much more!

So, according to the company’s philosophy to bring out the most reliable prototypes, the big Dürkopp was not an option – sadly!

Hope this helps,

Peter

Arie Dijkhuis · General

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the info! I read somewhere that the requirements for German Artillery Tractors was front wheel 120, back wheel 150 cm. This was later changed to 120/180 cm. I will have to look it up where I came across this.

With Kind Regards,

-Arie.

Peter T · General

Hmm, that could be the case at the Büssing 80hp Tractor. Its wheels look a bit smaller indeed. Just my two cents!

Peter T · General

And suddenly things went very fast. The producer posted the test sample on his FB site. It would seem that everything fits together rather well…

I am quite pleased with the final outcome !

Arie Dijkhuis · General

Hi Peter,

Wow, that looks great!!

With kind regards,

-Arie.

Peter T · General

Thanks my friend! After such a vehement battle with my computer I need a short break now ;-D

Arie Dijkhuis · General

I can imagine, it is a job well done!

Ned · General

Very well detailed!

Peter T · General

Thanks Arie and Ned!

There is a long way to go before I will/can start once with the Dürkopp. I am a very slow modeler, that's also the case with my «Büssing». Although the kit is very detailed there is a lot to improve yet. I do this with some scratch built parts and my own etchings and as you may see here:

Cheers, Peter

Arie Dijkhuis · General

Hi Peter,

That looks impressive!

With kind regards,

-Arie.

Arie Dijkhuis · General

Haven't even finished my two artillery munition vehicles, but have already started on a third vehicle. This time the predecessor... smile

CharlieC · Legend

Just a thought. The British used steel wheels like the ones on this German tractor - they were all modelled on steam traction engine wheels

although they varied in size a bit. The Foster-Daimler heavy tractor is a good example. Did the Germans also do the same - use traction

engine designs or did they design wheels specifically for their tractors?

Regards,

Charlie.

Peter T · General

Arie Dijkhuis wrote:
Haven't even finished my two artillery munition vehicles, but have already started on a third vehicle. This time the predecessor...

It's funny how small the world is! But this time it won't be another head-to-head race! I am just randomly trying out which parts ought to be new and which I could reuse.

@Charlie C

I have the intention that the wheels were an evolution of steam traction design indeed. But nevertheess there was a patent specially for artillerie tractors, the so called "Pöhl-Rad":

Arie Dijkhuis · General

CharlieC wrote:

Just a thought. The British used steel wheels like the ones on this German tractor - they were all modelled on steam traction engine wheels
although they varied in size a bit. The Foster-Daimler heavy tractor is a good example. Did the Germans also do the same - use traction
engine designs or did they design wheels specifically for their tractors?
Regards,
Charlie.

Hi Charlie,

German artillery tractors were developped from agricultural tractors, so it might well be the case that they share the same type of wheels as the steam traction engines.

With kind regards,

-Arie.