Landships II

airdave · Major

WW1 Canadian Armoured Autocar

airdave · Major

AS Tim already knows, I have been working on a variant... I wanted to make use of the Autocar chassis
and create another vehicle model. With Tims help, supplying me with a few reference photos, I have just
about finished the parts to create a 30cwt Cargo Lorry (British Army general service).

A few more small parts to test and then its on to a photo mockup of the complete Truck.
(I just don't have time right now to build another full Chassis with Suspension and Wheels)

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

Got my download� smile

Go on you know you want to......�

Great War Truck · Brigadier

That is a masterpiece. Truly, truly stunning work.

Tim

airdave · Major

PM sent to you Les

Les Fowler · Sergeant

Dave , it looks awsome , well done , I will be ordering !!!

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

Well done Dave, �seeing your progress of this project from the start to the very impressive finish makes us all appreciate the amount of work and research that goes into such a product. It also shows the generosity of the likes of Tim (Great War Truck) and the wonderful resource this forum is.

This is another example of Landships Forum at it's best.

airdave · Major

Yeah, and it goes to show you that not all are so helpful...

the assistance I received from the National War Museum in Ottawa was pathetic (in my opinion).

(on a side note, someone who lives in Ottawa, told me that for some odd reason, citizens of Ottawa
in general are the most inhospitable Canadians he has found to date. What is it about Ottawa?)

It took ages to get responses from the Museum...
and they didn't seem too interested in helping me in any way.
There was no effort to snap me a few photos (which would have been the simplest and quickest solution).

...and then when I finally arranged for someone to go in a take photos for me,
the Museum changed its agreement and would not allow better access for the photos.
My friend was forced to snap half a dozen shots from the normal visitor viewing spot and thats it.

Thanks do go out to Cameron Pulsifer, who wrote the booklet on the Armored Car...he was able to
get me in touch with staff at the Museum and was extremely supportive.

In the end, a project that I had very little interest in when I got started, but as usual, taught me
a little more about WW1, Canadian Armored Cars and Model designing. Always fun to learn more stuff!

�

...

�

I forgot to mention, the digital model is available at ecardmodels.com for $12

[ http://ecardmodels.com/product_info.php?products_id=2581&osCsid=6a7cad574f2fd4cf7f5f3d31fd0aa71c ]

If anyone here wishes to purchase a kit, you can buy it through ecardmodels

or contact me directly (through my website cutandfold.info)

...tell me who you are and I'll sell you the kit for $9 instead of $12, but I only accept Paypal.

...

Tim...can you contact me through my email please?

-- Edited by airdave on Friday 16th of March 2012 02:49:20 PM

airdave · Major

Did I mention that the model is finished?

Sorry for the lack of recent updates...it got to the point where I was so focused on completing the design...and then the instruction pages...

and trying to update 5 different websites about the progress...

it just got easier to say "visit my site for updates".

Sorry.

�

So the model is done, and has been selling for a couple of weeks now.

Response seems to be quite good.

I am very happy with the final result.

This is the cover of the Model kit (also used for online display)

�

I have already begun work on follow up designs.

Since I have a full Autocar chassis, I think I will be producing a kit of the basic Autocar Two-Ton Truck as it was ordered from the factory.

�

I`m also planning on one or two of the support vehicles that were also built on the Autocar chassis (maybe an Ammunitions Lorry or an Ambulance)...not quite sure yet.

First I have some aircraft model designs to complete.

Please check out the final design updates (on my Modelers Forum)

http://cutandfold.info/cutandfoldforum/index.php?topic=9.0

AND THANKS AGAIN!!! To all who followed the project and those who offered help.

Big thanks once again for all the photos Tim!!

�

airdave · Major

New updates at my site!

�

airdave · Major

Finally got back to this project!!

Its been on hold for a few weeks now...

recap:
finished the Chassis. Time to sort out the Body.
Need to understand the interior assembly and how the Body attaches to the Chassis.
Exhausted every reference avenue I can think of.
A friend finally made it to the War Museum in Ottawa to get me some Photos.
Unfortunately the display does not allow him close enough access to take the necessary Photos
and the Museum can't help me any further than that.

In the end, I decided to go with my gut...use my Mechanical skills and my best educated guesses
and come up with my own construction.

I was, up to this point, posting this info on at least five different Forums!
Its just too much work to keep this up! lol
I will be posting the full build report on my own Forum, here:
cutandfold forum autocar

I will try to do a few updates at this and other Forums, but if you want to follow the
complete build and design, you can see it all at my own Paper Modelers Forum.

heres the latest stage with all of the Cabin parts in place, and the forward Body in place.

�

airdave · Major

Just wanted to let everyone know...

I appreciate the attention, the interest and the help you have all given me so far.

The Autocar project has been on hold for sometime, because:
a. Holidays
b. Other Projects including Artwork jobs and Paper Models.
and c. because I ran out of reference material.

I am finished with the Chassis and ready to focus on the Armored car body.
However, I have absolutely no reference material as to the interior construction,
or how the armored panels are assembled and actually attached to the Chassis.

I need to see photos of the interior of the vehicle and none exist that I can find.

My only option is taking photos of the display vehicle in the Ottawa War Museum.
Museum people have given me permission to go beyond the barriers, and approach the vehicle.
I'm not to touch it...but I can take photographs over the sides and into the vehicle.
I would also like a couple of shots looking up inside the body, from the floor.

Anyway, I am too far away from Ottawa to do the trip myself, but I did arrange with a friend
who lives near to the Museum for him to take the photos for me.

However a serious medical
emergency within his family has sidelined that idea.

As it stands right now, I am looking for someone to make the trip and take the photos for me.
I am hoping another Paper Modeling buddy is traveling to Ottawa or already lives nearby
and will be willing to help with gathering the necessary reference images.

�

Hopefully more to come

-- Edited by airdave on Thursday 2nd of February 2012 04:15:23 PM

airdave · Major

Thanks Les...email sent

Thanks Tim...more great help.
I agree, the Levers must stay in place. Silly to think that they would be altered.
The drawings must be wrong.
I would say its a tight fit, but the Levers are still in place on the Armored car.

But I am wondering if an additonal floor has been added to enclose the bottom of the cockpit area
or are there gaps at the sides of the body?
Another question that could be answered with the right photos!

Great War Truck · Brigadier

Sorry. Christmas has made me a poor correspondant. The levers are brake and gear change. I cant see how they could be relocated although they could be bent inwards to allow them not to hit the armour plate. You do need to be able to put some strength into them to put the brake on so i cant see how you could replace them with a different system. I will check with the Autocar guru.

I took some photos of the civilian Autocar over Christmas which might be helpful to you.

Les Fowler · Sergeant

Dave...PM sent

airdave · Major

well, I am still at a complete standstill on this project.

Chassis is done, I am ready to start designing the armoured body panels.
But I need to understand the inner construction.
Some idea of how the body panels are assembled and mounted on the Chassis.
I need some clues as the interior structures.

I can't even establish if the side levers (Brake levers?) are in place in the Armoured Car?
The drawings show floor and seat boards spanning from side to side with no room for these levers
and yet original photos indicate the body is wider than the frame rails enough to clear these controls.

Can these levers even be removed?

I have attempted to email (twice) the Canadian War Museum, asking for photos of the interior.
I have received no response.

I live about 5/6 hours away by car, so its not an easy visit...but unless someone told me I would
be able to look inside the vehicle, the trip would be pointless.

Anyone know how to reach Dr. Cameron Pulsifer?
The man who wrote the book on the canadian Armoured Car.
His name is obviously associated with many publications, Colleges and Historical groups.
I have searched for some sort of contact info and can't find anything.

Anyone know someone who works at the Canadian War Museum in Ottawa?

I've put a lot of effort into making a semi-accurate Chassis for this model, using as much reference
material as possible...so I don't want to just guess and invent things from here.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

-- Edited by airdave on Tuesday 3rd of January 2012 04:10:06 PM

-- Edited by airdave on Tuesday 3rd of January 2012 04:13:05 PM

airdave · Major

Tim...re the Throttle pedal...

as I said, some of my photos don't seem to show that little Pedal on the far right side.

And on my diagram for the earlier Autocar, there is no pedal on the right side of the chassis,
but there is a "throttle control" just to the left of the waterpump assembly.
its indicated in the Oiling Diagram as Throttle Control levers.

I wonder if earlier Autocar trucks had a different throttle than later models?

or is this pedal somehow linkaged to the far right, and i just can't see it?

airdave · Major

Throttle?...well I might just have to put something in place then. lol
But I think it might just be the pedal itself,
and I will forego anything under the floor.

[would you have photos that show the mounting or any linkage underneath the pedal?]

I have already thought about the seat/box issue, and I came up with my own theory.
I do agree with you partially...

I have only one photo that shows anything of the interior
and it clearly shows a wooden "bench" top seat.

�

It makes sense to me not to waste time and effort altering any more of the vehicle than
was necessary at the time of fitting the armored body.�
Removing the Seat itself does make sense.
It was large and cumbersome, in the way of working inside the cabin area
and would have blocked soldiers from moving in and out of the cabin area.

But if the supporting Engine box is removed, it would just has to be replaced with
something else to support the new Bench seat.
And if the hinged lift system was too awkward, to use inside the armored body,
then I could see removing the hinges so that the� box lifted in and out instead.

(I will add a note in the kit,� that the Hinge lift lever is an optional item)

I don't have access to the Ottawa Museum and might not be able to examine the vehicle
anyway, so unless someone has photos of the inside, I will have to guess.

-- Edited by airdave on Saturday 10th of December 2011 12:10:53 AM

Great War Truck · Brigadier

That is amazing. Truly magnificent.
The small pedal on the right is the throttle. it lifts out when you take the floor out. I can send you some more photos if you like.

The seat box is fantastic. But i am not sure if the armoured cars had that. Possibly not, as the whole point of the seat box was so you could reach into the engine from standing alongside. You wouldnt be able to do that with the armoured body in the way so they might have adopted an easier approach. You will need to see photos of the AC in Canada to be certain.

airdave · Major

Now that the Pedals, Steering and Linkages are all in place, I can think about adding
the Floor Pan and other upper structures.

The front of this Floor pan is modified to suit the Armored car body.
(although I am at a real loss to know exactly how the front housing had been modified
and how the Armored Panels were exactly attached to the Chassis.
There will be some semi-intelligent guessing here!

Floor fits nicely...all the holes line up.
The textured floor looks good...rendered in 2D graphics.
Lets add some Pedals!

Upper box and Seat support box are done too, I even hinged the seat Box!
However, lacking the stiffness of sheet metal, the box sides are not being
cooperative and won't stay aligned.
I might just glue them in place.
(You could always add some layers to stiffen the panels?)

airdave · Major

Okay, time for a big update, since I haven't posted one in a while.
Sorry about that...I do appreciate the interest in my project, and I want to share.
I'll make two new posts here and now.

Since my last post, I have sorted out the Steering Box issues
(which involved another minor resize of the Steering Box - a little narrower to fit,
and a re-evaluation of the chassis parts).

It seems I misread the photos and diagrams early on, and I found the engine
and transmission to be too far rearward.
Basically I have some crossmembers in the wrong positon.

This also explained some of the steering Box and Waterpump fit issues,
as well as the Transmission Box being too short.

I have since modified the frame...in fact, I built an entire new Chassis.
(It was heartbreaking to cut up the old one! lol)

Waterpump parts are in place as well as the Steering Box and all seems to be
working now!
Enough so, that I have added the Foot Pedal linkage.

In keeping with the simplified design i am trying to maintain, I have created
what I think are the major visual components of the linkages.
Keep in mind, that this is all going to be hidden once the Floor and Engine
covers are in place.
Most of these components are there just to provide a more completed look to
the underside of the model.

Heres another view of the Pedals and linkages.
Originally I had included a small foot pedal that appears at the far right of the floor.
I have no idea what it is for?...and it doesn't appear in every photo of all the different
Autocars I have seen.
Its also going to be some very small parts and more linkages underneath that I don't
really have room for.
I have made the decision to leave out that part in the name of "keeping it simple".
It will have to be considered one of those extra detail parts that a more advanced
builder can choose to add.

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

I'm speechless!!!!

airdave · Major

Yup...I understand� the Rad position now, thanks!

I think the thing that really threw me was the hole through the core of the radiator to allow the crank handle.

....

�

followup on the Steering Linkage...

got the Steering Box in place, which is fine...got the connecting linkage in place, which is fine...

still unsure of the lower extending arm (pitman arm?) and how it extends below the steering box, its length, size and how it connects to the steering linkage.

I'm hoping someone can come up with a photo of the underside to help me understand.

-- Edited by airdave on Friday 2nd of December 2011 03:55:31 PM

Great War Truck · Brigadier

OK. That looks like a viable restoration project to me. Just need to get that engine which was on a stand from earlier on in this thread.
There were two different types of rad arrangement. I think cooling became a problem and the rad was lowered slightly. I think that rad is the samea s ours apart from the vertical bracket which is unusual. Compare it to this one:

airdave · Major

Thanks Tim
Its not spot on...but its a good start.

I say its not spot on, because I am already redoing it.
One of the guys over at the American Historical Truck Society
found me some pics of a field rusty wreck, and some good angles of the backside of the steering box.

I would still like to see from underneath, specifically the "pitman" arm and steering linkage connection
but I may just have to fake it (so I can move on)

I've also got to deal with some of the other large parts in the front area of the frame.

I do have one question...your Truck chassis doesn't show the cross member that sits ahead of the radiator.
I have pics of one chassis with this forward cross member...but it also seems to have a lower fitted radiator.
Take a look at the pics...tell me if is the same as your Truck or what differences you see..

Great War Truck · Brigadier

I have checked with my brother who is very familiar with the steering box and he says you have got it spot on.
What next?

airdave · Major

I have taken a good look at my photos again.
I have about six that show some parts of the Steering Box.
Unfortunately they're almost all from the same angle
and its very difficult to see things clearly.
There is one shot of the front end of the frame, which has given me a new insight into how the "pitman" arm comes down to connect to the steering linkage.

So, using my Mechanic's brain (I actually do have a Class A license),
I have put some thought into it and came up with this.

Now you have to remember, that from an artists's point of view and for the purposes of card model design
I have to stylize and simplify the object into some basic shapes and buildable pieces.
Knowing what you know about the steering, does this resemble the Gear Box?

The light blue parts represent the gear Box components.

[Grey is frame...Dk Grey is cross members...Floor Pan and Column are also included]

�

-- Edited by airdave on Wednesday 30th of November 2011 12:40:50 AM

airdave · Major

yes Tim...I know where it is in those photos.
but you can't actually "see it". lol

you can see a little of the top from the left side, and thats it.
Nowhere near enough even to guess at its overall shape
or how its bracketed to the frame
or what the backside looks like
or how the underside looks (which is the most important view since thats all you'll see once I put the body on!)
And I have no clue how it connects to the steering linkage.

lol
see, I told ya...its gonna start

Great War Truck · Brigadier

The steering box is suprisingly small. I will see if i can find you another photo but i dont think i have one. You can actually see it in the top left of the photo which i posted with the carb on it. It sits on the second cross member with a supporting bracket going to the first member. You can see it again in the photo showing the water pump and fan with the radiator removed three photos above the top exhaust pipe photo. if you cant make them out i will circle them for you and repost.

airdave · Major

Unfortunately I need stuff now...thats kinda why I am a little pushy about this.
I apologize.

It looks like I am down to the last few things for the Chassis, before I can move on to the floor and upper body components.
Theres a limit to what I am going to put in there, but I need the major components.
And the Steering Box is the next thing, and probably the only thing left that I can't pretend to understand.

I'm kind of at a standstill until I get these last few frame components in place.
And I hate being at a standstill! lol

Don't worry, I will find a pic or diagram of this steering box...or just make something up...
and keep working on it.

Great War Truck · Brigadier

You really are doing an incredible job. I will be spending some time with the trucks in a few weeks and can do some more photos for you. Start a wish list of photos that you want and i will see what i can do.

airdave · Major

okay...I have studied my avaialble photos (of WW1 Autocars) and deicded to go with the single Muffler setup.
Keeping it as simple as possible, I have made up a set of pipes.
Simple butt end glue joints to the cylinder heads
and same with all the pipe connections. (as few pieces as possible)

Only thing I could not reference is the hanger brackets for the Muffler.
Since it sits slightly offset from the main Frame rail and its a bit larger than the single Mufflers, the attachment design must be different.

So, I have had to imagine a pair of brackets.
I have no idea if they resemble the real thing, but they are fairly well hidden once the body goes on.

Just have to tweak the lengths a bit and add some better colouring, but this is what it looks like.

�

That new diagram you posted (Tim) has made a world of difference!!

It allowed me to see some major design errors in the front of my Frame. Specifically the cross members...I was one short and the position of all three forward cross members had to be changed.

This also helps me understand the steering Box position a little better! So I am really glad you shared that diagram!

�

Off again...more hunting...to find a photo of the right type of Steering Box.

-- Edited by airdave on Tuesday 29th of November 2011 09:59:55 PM

airdave · Major

wow! that would have been BIG useful! LOL
It'll still come in handy...thanks!

Yup, all the pics of the Armored Car in action have the single Muffler setup
so thats what I am doing.
Its a larger Muffler and mounted back on the main Frame...
I just wish I could see the bracketry...or I will be making it up in my head!

Big issue is the Steering Box...I have two pics from you that show parts of the Gearbox,
but I can't quite make it all out.
I am hunting for more reference on that one.

Great War Truck · Brigadier

Sorry. it would have saved you a lot of trouble if i found this earlier, but cest la guerre.
The inlets from the carb appear to go to the top hole in the cylinder block, and not the bottom as i suggested.

Great War Truck · Brigadier

Yes thats rihgt. Two mufflers fixed to the sub frame. Ours are both 1918 chassis and have that arrangement. Earlier ones had the single exhaust. This manifests itself in the US trials vehicles. Not sure about the armoured cars though as i have never seen where they are located. it could be either.

I just found this which you might find useful

airdave · Major

Great stuff!

ah, so that Truck has two Mufflers? and they are bracketed to the lower "sub-frame"?

I've got some photos of other Autocar trucks with one larger Muffler, on the lefthand side of the vehicle
further to the rear.
And my blueprint diagram of the Autocar shows the same setup...a Y-pipe leading to a larger Muffler further to the rear.

Any thoughts on these variations, and what I should go with?

Great War Truck · Brigadier

The carb (a stromberg m2) is actually suprisingly small. I have already posted the best photos i have of it, but i will show them again here:

It is located under the floor, with one pipe rising from it, then splitting into two and going straight into the top of the two holes in the front of the blocks, the bottom one being for water.

Great War Truck · Brigadier

This will answer your question about the exhaust. The ribbed exhausts are original.

airdave · Major

Got any pics of the exhaust system?

Between my Blueprint Diagram and photos of restored vehicles,
I am completely confused as to the overall size and shape of the Muffler and Pipes.
I also don't understand how the pipes connect to the motor and how they snake their way back through the chassis.

Do the pipes connect to the back of the Cyl. heads and then drop down,
before trailing backwards?
The cross pipe shows behind the mid crossmember...does it then run below the driveshaft?
To what does the muffler attach? and how?

Not sure how complicated I will get with exhaust piping in paper.
(This is an extra detail that a more advanced builder could add)
But if nothing else, I still want to incude a diagram of where and how the pipes should run.

Similar question about the Carburetors? or air/fuel intake system.
Is there some sort of air box? thats piped to the cylinder heads?

Great War Truck · Brigadier

it seems that we didnt take photos of those parts during the restoration.

Hopefully these ones might help you a little:

�

From the steering box there is a short arm that connects to a rod that runs across to the passenger side wheel hub. As that turns the wheel the tracking rod (which joins at the same location) pulls the other wheel to follow it.

The next photo shows the drivers side hub and how the tracking rod connects to it.